When Karol mentioned something to the effect of "we don't see people arguing", I get the intended implications that the things we watch and read are becoming ever increasingly siloed and we rarely have a good-faith view into opposing opinions. I gently disagree. While that is true, what confrontation of views is, unfortunately, very much arguing when what we need is actual debate - the good-faith engagement with different ideas and worldviews. We need to resurrect rhetoric, logic, and debate as a cultural value. I'll try for a better explanation when I get home. (Assuming I remember... I've been in remission and done with chemo since Feb, but I'm still - frustratingly - struggling with recall and occasional brain fog)
I think more people need to steelman the arguments of the opposing side to really understand what they are talking about. You quickly realize that there is often more overlap in your beliefs than you expect.
One of the best parts of competing on the high school debate team is that I was forced to be able to build a compelling case for and against this year's policy statement. I had to be ready to contend pro/con based on what we drew at the tournament.
It also helped to hone the ability to spot issues of logic, framing, and so much more. Though, I was also fortunate enough to have a quality coach who understood as well as was able to teach, the art of rhetoric. I saw coaches who were just doing it for the extra pay given to teachers who coached extracurricular activities...
I've found her interesting in the past but wow it was hard to take her seriously after she said that nobody on the right would act the way some liberal and leftist nobodies (although including some normies, yes) have behaved in the wake of Kirk's assassination. Does she not remember how Mike Lee memed and joked two months ago after the Minnesota assassinations? That's a US SENATOR. Does she think nobody on the right would react poorly were it Hasan Piker instead of Charlie Kirk?
I wish you had pushed her on that a little, but considering it was so soon in the conversation after she mentioned that initially hearing the news led her to bursting into tears... I don't know. But online clout chasing from dancing on graves is genuinely a both sides problem and I think that dehumanization contributes to putting us at risk of seeing more political assassinations. If "the right polices its own" I hope she said something against Mike Lee two months ago. Seems odd she'd forget if she did, though.
I agree with you that her blindness of the right having a history of laughing at political violence towards the left, and feigning incredulity when "we're just joking" is said from the supposedly can't-take-a-joke left. Last year Donald Jr. publicly was aghast with anyone joking about his dad's assassination attempt, but Don Jr months after the attempted murder of Paul Pelosi joked about his Halloween costume that was making light of Paul Pelosi’s attack. Political violence towards targets that are coded left are dismissed or downplayed, while violence towards targets that are coded right not only get amplified but gets collectively blamed. The comparison of BLM riots with property damage and the intentional violence directed to police in January 6th is the most demonstrative of this but the mass pardoning of the perpetrators of political violence at the beginning of Trump’s term is permission structure of the political violence that he says exclusively comes from the left. Had the full size gallows been used and the chant of “Hang Mike Pence” been carried out to the acceptance of Trump who said he got what he deserved, would Karen just accepted that as political reality or would she demanded universal denouncement of the violence? Are the guillotine gifs more offensive than the built gallows outside of the Capitol building with a mob chanting death to the incumbent vice president?
Get Karol Ground News. How insulting to belabor the "left not understanding the right" line and then lob her nothing but softballs. What journalistic malpractice.
What an incredible and illuminating discussion with Karol Markowicz! Thank you, Justin.
As a fellow internet apologist/explainer in chief, and someone who has followed politics in extreme detail going back to the '90s, the conversation was basically like running a "sharpen" filter on what I'd been seeing over the past decade or so. So well said, so well explained, so thoughtful.
I think it feels a little handwavy to downplay the controversial things Charlie Kirk said with a "Who among us?" given the absolutely wild nature of some of his positions that he had no qualms saying loudly and publicly. If you want to say that the "left" doesn't police it's own then I think it's disingenuous to simultaneously push the problematic positions of Kirk under the rug. Great conversation overall, Karol is super interesting to hear from!
IMO it’s more of a timing thing. I don’t want to minimize what I believe is the main story: a public act of political violence. What I REALLY don’t want to play into is a narrative that his punditry justified his death.
I don't want the messaging to reflect that either. I just think that it's okay for someone like Karol to own that he said some wild things which sparked controversy rather than trying to minimize their existence. Thanks again Justin, I know these conversations can't be easy to do without touching sensitive spots.
When Karol mentioned something to the effect of "we don't see people arguing", I get the intended implications that the things we watch and read are becoming ever increasingly siloed and we rarely have a good-faith view into opposing opinions. I gently disagree. While that is true, what confrontation of views is, unfortunately, very much arguing when what we need is actual debate - the good-faith engagement with different ideas and worldviews. We need to resurrect rhetoric, logic, and debate as a cultural value. I'll try for a better explanation when I get home. (Assuming I remember... I've been in remission and done with chemo since Feb, but I'm still - frustratingly - struggling with recall and occasional brain fog)
I think more people need to steelman the arguments of the opposing side to really understand what they are talking about. You quickly realize that there is often more overlap in your beliefs than you expect.
One of the best parts of competing on the high school debate team is that I was forced to be able to build a compelling case for and against this year's policy statement. I had to be ready to contend pro/con based on what we drew at the tournament.
It also helped to hone the ability to spot issues of logic, framing, and so much more. Though, I was also fortunate enough to have a quality coach who understood as well as was able to teach, the art of rhetoric. I saw coaches who were just doing it for the extra pay given to teachers who coached extracurricular activities...
I've found her interesting in the past but wow it was hard to take her seriously after she said that nobody on the right would act the way some liberal and leftist nobodies (although including some normies, yes) have behaved in the wake of Kirk's assassination. Does she not remember how Mike Lee memed and joked two months ago after the Minnesota assassinations? That's a US SENATOR. Does she think nobody on the right would react poorly were it Hasan Piker instead of Charlie Kirk?
I wish you had pushed her on that a little, but considering it was so soon in the conversation after she mentioned that initially hearing the news led her to bursting into tears... I don't know. But online clout chasing from dancing on graves is genuinely a both sides problem and I think that dehumanization contributes to putting us at risk of seeing more political assassinations. If "the right polices its own" I hope she said something against Mike Lee two months ago. Seems odd she'd forget if she did, though.
I agree with you that her blindness of the right having a history of laughing at political violence towards the left, and feigning incredulity when "we're just joking" is said from the supposedly can't-take-a-joke left. Last year Donald Jr. publicly was aghast with anyone joking about his dad's assassination attempt, but Don Jr months after the attempted murder of Paul Pelosi joked about his Halloween costume that was making light of Paul Pelosi’s attack. Political violence towards targets that are coded left are dismissed or downplayed, while violence towards targets that are coded right not only get amplified but gets collectively blamed. The comparison of BLM riots with property damage and the intentional violence directed to police in January 6th is the most demonstrative of this but the mass pardoning of the perpetrators of political violence at the beginning of Trump’s term is permission structure of the political violence that he says exclusively comes from the left. Had the full size gallows been used and the chant of “Hang Mike Pence” been carried out to the acceptance of Trump who said he got what he deserved, would Karen just accepted that as political reality or would she demanded universal denouncement of the violence? Are the guillotine gifs more offensive than the built gallows outside of the Capitol building with a mob chanting death to the incumbent vice president?
Get Karol Ground News. How insulting to belabor the "left not understanding the right" line and then lob her nothing but softballs. What journalistic malpractice.
Want on the show that hasn't been on in a while: Jack Allison, Nobody Special Finance
Has never been on but I wanna see you two go: Dave Anthony from The Dollop (Jenn knows him)
And that final thought was spot on. I'm printing it up and putting it on my monitor.
What an incredible and illuminating discussion with Karol Markowicz! Thank you, Justin.
As a fellow internet apologist/explainer in chief, and someone who has followed politics in extreme detail going back to the '90s, the conversation was basically like running a "sharpen" filter on what I'd been seeing over the past decade or so. So well said, so well explained, so thoughtful.
At some point in October, I would love to hear thatclub music fade in from the background for a surprise poll dance.
I think it feels a little handwavy to downplay the controversial things Charlie Kirk said with a "Who among us?" given the absolutely wild nature of some of his positions that he had no qualms saying loudly and publicly. If you want to say that the "left" doesn't police it's own then I think it's disingenuous to simultaneously push the problematic positions of Kirk under the rug. Great conversation overall, Karol is super interesting to hear from!
IMO it’s more of a timing thing. I don’t want to minimize what I believe is the main story: a public act of political violence. What I REALLY don’t want to play into is a narrative that his punditry justified his death.
But down the road, if people still care, sure.
I don't want the messaging to reflect that either. I just think that it's okay for someone like Karol to own that he said some wild things which sparked controversy rather than trying to minimize their existence. Thanks again Justin, I know these conversations can't be easy to do without touching sensitive spots.
Always good to hear from Carol Markowicz. Great discussion.